Koth or arena?

[Original]

I was just thinking about koth_lighthouse. I always liked arena_lighthouse and most 'serious' (by that I mean not maps with 100 cows in a box) arena maps.
When Psy first annouced the koth version I was sceptical, but I had quite a bit of fun on it yesterday and alot of people were playing. Seemed like everyone was having fun.

But it seems that popular opinion of arena maps is low. Even Lumberyard which is an excellent arena map imo is barely over a 3 (3.19 I think) on the ratings page.

While Arena_lighthouse sits at about a 4, it still doesn't have enough votes to be counted as a permanant map for rotation. Koth_lighthouse on the other hand is barely over 3 but has alot of votes. So it leaves me a bit confused.

Is it that only people who liked arena_lighthouse voted on it, thus a high score with few votes, or do people like it better than the koth version?

Or do people like koth more (hence more votes) but they don't like lighthouse for that map type? Obviously koth_rainbow is a hideous map (my sincere appologies to the mapper and/or anyone who likes it - but it is one of those love/hate maps like mario kart due to the fact it's so extreme and un tf2 like) but it has a ton of votes and is almost a 4.
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Anyway, those are the things that got me thinking. What I really want to know basically is do people tend to like Koth maps more than arena?
Obviously Koth solves the main issue most people have with arena, sitting out.

I've currently got 2 arena maps in beta and near completion, so would it be worth it to also have a koth version of each. The groundwork for the new mode would be simple to configure and the maps are basically ready for it.

[captainAngry]

The ratings are kind of subjective. That's why a good rating on my rating system is a three, which in a typical 1-5 scale would actually be more along the lines of average. You will see that there is nothing over a 4. You will notice that almost every map has at least one rating of 1. This is due to a few reasons:

• 1.) Some people hit 1 on every vote as soon as it comes up for whatever reason they have.
  2.) People use the number keys for various reasons. If a rating comes up when they are trying to change weapons or do something in another menu, they may accidentally vote.

Most people will not go back in and change their vote when it is done, even in error. Some regulars on my server will but not everyone.

The number of ratings is also important. KOTH_Rainbow was just below a three for at least a month. It took until it had about 35 votes before it finally made it over to a three. This is because one day, with a half full server, a bunch of people were on that knew they liked the map and nominated it for RTV. They then proceded to talk about how awesome the map was until the rating came up.

People are very open to the power of suggestion. You could make someone feel like they are having a good time by talking to them. But if there was no talking or they were having a shitty day and doing the exact same thing they might rate the map a 3 instead of a 4 or something.

The only time data like this is really useful is when you have a shit ton of it. The more data you have, the more accurate the average is until it is so close that it is statistically irrelevant to collect more data. On the numbers we are seeing here, this is hardly the case.

Our ratings are used to keep maps on and off the server so since people know that and could potentially actually know the threshold for when maps get on the regular rotation could rate based on that. The ratings would then translate to something like:

• 1.) Don't put this map on the server
  2.) I don't like this map but I can see that some people could like it
  3.) This map is okay and I wouldn't mind it being on the server
  4.) I like this map and it should be on the server
  5.) I absolutely love this map and it needs to be on the server today

That's basically how I rate the maps but I am very familiar with the data. I usually know when a map is close to being deemed bad and removed from the server. If I think the map would be good to have on the server I will change my rating to a 5, talk up the map the first few rounds and then ask everyone to rate it. I do the opposite thing for maps that are close but I don't think should be on the server.






Wow this went on a long time, sorry....



To answer your question, I like arena maps in small doses and I judge a KOTH map like I judge any CP or CTF map.

[Awesomesauce]

I rate maps pretty much like this:

1 - I hate this map

3 - Average

5 - Awesome map i am having tons of fun.

Everything else is in between.

Also, Captain is right about the power of suggestion: One day i rated a map a 3 out of 5 and the next day i was talking about how much i hated that map. Turns out I was just having a good day when i rated it a 3.

And forgive me but i don't really correct my errors when voting.

[GrimGriz]

Rainbow is actually the only koth map I've ever played..though botg is kind of koth if I try and think about it.

Arena is a different beast entirely. CP, PL, CTF...they all seem like variations on the same game. Arena otoh...it's just too different. It doesn't surprise me that the people who love TF2 can still not like arena. IMO the classes were designed for a game with respawn. In an ideal world, I'd have an arena/jump map server in my favorites for when I didn't want to play regular TF2.

As I don't personally like it...I try to rate any arena maps that come up a 3. To me that's like not voting to an extent. It's also what I do with normal maps until I feel I've played them long enough to know them...at which time I'll !maprate and correct my rating.

[captainAngry]

And forgive me but i don't really correct my errors when voting.

I wouldn't expect anyone to change their rating, I just know a few people do.

[Original]

Good explanation of the ratings

Yeah, most maps get a 3 from me. Some of it is probably due to the fact that I know how hard it is to get a complete map finished so I think I can be forgiving in some instances. In other instances I can be a bit critical. So rarely do I give a 5, I really gotta like a map especially for that, same with a 1. I have gone back and changed a few votes after more testing too because it is hard to give an accurate judgement until you know the map well.

However, the discussion did sidetrack a bit more towards ratings and I probably spurred that with my ranting about how maps are rated.
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It's also probably a hard question to answer as there are only like 3 koth maps on the server as far as I could tell. I've only played 2, one of which was rainbow.
And I also like arena mode myself so it would be hard for me to judge which I like better.
I probably like them both about the same as I don't mind some sitting out.

I'll probably try and gather more data before I commit to anything. I don't really want to flood the server with my maps in various incarnations. If at a later date it seems like koth maps are more enjoyeable for most people I will probably convert them to that style also. For now I will just polish up the arena modes and get the maps ready for possible transition.