Dissapointed... read on if you dare

[Original]

I thought about whether or not I wanted to post this for awhile, and came to realize that yes i do.

I'm pretty disappointed with a few of the mods after last nights gametest. Seeing how this is a custom server and the owner of the server runs a map test 2 days a week every week for as long as I remember it seems like a few of the mods (I'll with hold names cause you know who you are) just dont get it.

I realize that map testing is alot about seeing which maps we want on the server, and of course everyone (myself included) wants to play only good maps, or maps they like, but it is also a great resource that captian has shared with mappers to be able to get important and critical feedback on maps in progress so the maps can be as good as possible for all of us to enjoy.

Now my map was an alpha (the first one to be precise) and in rough shape. Plain, open and boring, whatever. The point in testing it was to get feedback on this stuff now, instead of after another 40 hours working on the map so I don't have to redo 40 hours of work.
All I asked for was for my fellow mods to give me a few minutes of their time (My map got rtved after about12 minutes) We play completely shitty crappy maps that people bitch about constantly more than that all the time.

And yet what happened.
Before the map even started one mod started bitching about how it didn't even sound fun. Why? because of the name? I asked why, no response. I know you are young, but grow up, just 10 minutes before you were laughing at someone else who is only a few years younger than you for being immature.
Then continuing for the next 5-10 minutes was constant bitching from this mod. I can't even learn a new map in the first 5 minutes. The only thing that stopped it was me getting pissed and basically saying STFU.

Of course this immediately led to mod #2 (at game start) to start bitching. And you know who you are cause you bitch everytime my maps come up. Either they are arena, only one of which you like which is a flawed map with an error that shows on everyones screen all the time. This mod has also changed maps when my map came up and won a vote, instantly that mod abused his powers and switched to a map he likes (guy montag) from mine. ironically I hadn't even voted for my map or nominated it and it still won the rtv. Then when I asked WTF? I got no response.
I held off and decided not to even bring it up until now. I know you are older than other said mod so you should be a little more mature.

And of course when mods start bitching everyone else starts bitching. So instead of getting feedback I got 10 minutes of mic spam bitching. Thanks alot.
I couldn't even get a word in edgewise to tell people 'its an alpha, I need feedback. It was just constant interuptions of complaints.

This doesn't go for everyone. I got alot of screens and feedback from another player from another forums that I don't even think plays at cC much. And of course captian is good for giving feedback.
A few other people gave good feedback too once the bitching subsided a little bit. I really appreciate this as I think the map could be fun when finished, and this feedback can only make it moreso.

I just don't know what to say. Is it possible for mods to actually back each other up here? Is it possible for a mod to have his map tested for more than 0 minutes before the bitching starts? Is it a problem with me? Would I get a better more fair result if I submit the map under someone elses name?

It's funny to me that captian and myself both defended you guys at another forum for this same type of behavior just a few weeks ago. And now I know exactly why that person was bitching.
Does anyone really enjoy playing the game when people just bitch and moan the whole time?

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I guess while I'm on a rant I might as well get this off my chest too.

STOP bitching about SPAWN CAMPING
My god, its a FN myth alright. It started in another game when you could get INTO an enemys spawn. If a path to intel leads past your spawn on a map I don't know and I set you on first as you come out of spawn and I am going by that's map layout. NOT SPAWN CAMPING. If you get killed once outside of spawn you are not being camped.
If you continually get killed by same person it might be a problem, but maybe you suck at getting out of spawn.

This whole debate is always brought up by sore losers who are pissed cause someone kills them and 'spawn camping' is just an easy reason to choose for them killing you. If the spawn only has one exit and there is only one spawn its just bad map design. get over it, expect it, work around it.

[captainAngry]

Yeah, I don't know what the hell that was about last night. That map wasn't even bad, it was just early alpha.

There are a handfull of people that bitch about everything and it seems that once it starts flowing it spreads like a wildfire. I know there are people that hate the playTest days but they are nessasary to find new maps for the server, reguardless of weither or not we are testing alphas for people.

On Yin-Yang there was a lot to complain about. As someone who gives a lot of feedback, there were things that I wrote off as the map being a1 since I knew that you would fix them without saying so. Those seemed to be the things that people were bitching about which is just annoying.

Looking back, we should have started muting people that were basicly trolling the server. Also, for the record, I would have stopped the RTV but I was on the forum writing feedback when the map changed. I am always for helping people test their maps, especially if they are regulars and I am really sorry that this happened. As the map progresses I am sure that the bitching will lessen and I will make a better effort to let people know that they need to STFU and stop trolling because I am sure that the majority of the server was annoyed.

I have added this map to the regular rotation this week so that we can test it outside of the play test. Hopefully we can get some more feedback before next week and make up for the bullshit from last night.

_____
Spawn camping is one thing. There is a thin line between spawn camping and playing sometimes but if players cannot get out of their spawn or someone repeatadly hangs out right outside the spawn it is definately spawn camping. If the whole blue team is having a shitty time because a bunch of red dudes are spamming nades and pyros are standing outside lighting people on fire as soon as the door opens, that's not good.

All in alll people need to stop bitching about stupid shit and try to have fun.

[GrimGriz]

I've had my struggles getting feedback, though it's been better lately and never sounding as bad as that. My biggest problem is that I'll start getting some good feedback over voice and then someone will yell into their mic "GODDAMNIT KATIE!!" or whatever because they just got stabbed in the back and they're completely inconsiderate to the fact that someone is actually saying something worth hearing.

I'd say I'm against RTVing on testing days, but cap has the map time set to run pretty long in my book.

As far as spawn camping goes, you can spawn camp valve maps. On the current version of my map it's too easy to do, and the whole red team can get involved...at which point (IMO) it's time for an admin to say enough already and start smacking people around.

[captainAngry]

I'd say I'm against RTVing on testing days, but cap has the map time set to run pretty long in my book.

Yeah. I tried to set things that would work for every map. Maps run for four rounds so maps with a quick turn around (usually chaotic "fun" maps) end way before the time ends. The time is set so long because on multi stage attack/defend maps a round could last 30-40 minutes and usually, if the map hasn't been changed by then, the defending team wants a chance to attack or whatever.

Usually if I am on the server and a map looks like it is going to be RTV'd but I feel like it needs more time, I just set the current map as the next map so that all the RTV does is reload the map.

As much as a lot of people are to blame for last night, I feel like it is my fault because I should have done more to put an end to it. I was just as annoyed, if not more annoyed than Original was/is and I feel like I could have done something, but didn't.

[Original]

Well, I don't blame you captian, its impossible to control everyone and sometimes you just gotta let stuff run its course I guess. And you do have mods that should help with this.

and the quick rtv didn't even bother me that much. I'm not trying to force people to play maps they don't want to, or to do extensive testing. 12 min at that stage actually told me alot about where the map needed to go, I just feel that mods should be the people that calm people down and try to keep the server inline with what it's about.
But last night it was tmods who were causing the problems. Even when someone did have feedback it was hard to hear as Grim said.

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And I agree, even though my last post may not have seemed like it. Spawn camping IS possible, but I rarely see it actually happen, especially on cC. But that's why it puzzles me why there is so much bitching about it happening. I don't like dying right outside of spawn any more than anyone else but sometimes that's just where the path leads. katie threatened to 'ban me personally' if I 'kept' spawn camping when I lit her on fire once outside of spawn trying to find a new way to the point. I don't even think she died, maybe, not sure.
But once and continually are 2 different things. And that spawn room is right next to the point on one of the 3 paths there and has 2 doors right next to each other = bad design. you even said 'this map is ridiculous' captain.

Really all mappers can try to do to combat it is have more than one spawn and/or have multiple doors in a spawn that exit away from each other.
@ grim, I think the problem with this in Dustribute is you don't have blockers for the team in the area outside of the spawn. The spawn is under ground so it's an uphill battle to get out (it should be downhill if not flat) or the room with the trucks needs to be blocked from red which imo is the best solution.

From there it's up to mods to actually enforce 'real spawn camping', not just threaten players because they died once near spawn.

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It's OK to not have it in rotation also, I've already changed ALOT of stuff and have to have a new vers up tonight for this weekends gameday (sat). after saturdays test I will hopefully be on the way to detailing in which case I might submit a new vers for mon/tues and try my luck again.

[Divine Fate]

I can only speak for myself here, but we played the map for about 3 rounds before it was rocked. I had my chance to give feedback and take my screenshots and whatnot, then eventually the map changed. It seemed to me like either you were wasting time, or you just need way too much time to get feedback.

Yes, it's an alpha that needs feedback, and no, I didn't rock the vote because I didn't like the map. We always hear complaining about maps, it's just a harder way to get what it needs out of it. It may be me accustomed to it, but most of what I heard was constructive towards the gain of the map, with the occasional "DANGIT KAITE!" here and there, which is to be expected. Because it IS an alltalk server that has talkative people. Use the mutehammer if it gets out of control, otherwise there's in-game mute if you feel you must only hear what people have to say about your map.

We usually try to whenever somebody wants their map tested to immediately make that map the next map, or even put out a map vote to get people to go to that map.

As for spawn camping, I consider it a crime when a pyro constantly sprays flames into the spawn or a demo sticky camps it. Your spawn room coming from a balcony rather than the ground was an excellent way to prevent such crime.

[arkawn]

I don't think I bitched about the ability to spawn camp on the map as much as "would you idiots stop letting assholes into our spawn plz"

The map was good, people r stoopid

[captainAngry]

It's OK to not have it in rotation also, I've already changed ALOT of stuff and have to have a new vers up tonight for this weekends gameday (sat). after saturdays test I will hopefully be on the way to detailing in which case I might submit a new vers for mon/tues and try my luck again.

I think I am going to leave it in the rotation anyway to see if I can get any more specific feedback for you. I'll update the version as soon as a new one is available.

[4most]

Personally i liked the map. It was good by my stardards (in alpha) and i played it for about oh say 5-6 mins.

On Spawn camping one thing GET OVER IT QUIT WHINING

EDIT: Members day this month?

[pleasenopouncing]

if i am ever on a new map i make it a habit to play atleast 1 round of it before i rtv even if after 10min i hate it. if i was there i would have tried to help defend u original.

[Liquid Death]

Yeah, people seem to not know the meaning of Construcive critisism or giving a map a chance. People should tell the creator what they like and dislike about the map, instead of saying that it sucks.

[arkawn]

Yeah, people seem to not know the meaning of Construcive critisism or giving a map a chance. People should tell the creator what they like and dislike about the map, instead of saying that it sucks.

you mean

constructive Criticism

[g_e_oos]

The only reason I tend not to give feedback is because I'm never quite sure what to say. I guess I'll start trying harder. Oh and most of the time when I hear about spawn camping it's because someone actually is spawn camping. Someone building a sentry right outside of the enemies spawn is spawn camping and is ridiculous but it still does happen.

[Divine Fate]

Or in this map's case, spies backstabbing INSIDE the spawn rooms.

[BigJohn 308]

I would like to think that it’s not so much that people are not interested in being helpful, but that they are more interested in playing a finished product. The old adage >>>everybody wants to swim in a clean pool, but nobody likes to clean the pool [for everybody else]<<< comes to mind.
Personally, I don’t think that your request for feedback on an unfinished product was too much to ask for, especially on a play test night. But I also can understand waning interest in playing an incomplete map too. Humans are notorious for the propensity to instant gratification.
I guess what I am trying to say is don’t take what happened yesterday as a personal slight. I would like to believe that the majorities intention at the premature RTV was for an instant indulgence to their precious game playing time… just a like the majority wanting to swim in a clean pool.
And please…Don’t become discouraged and stop making maps!!! It’s a skill that few possess but everybody appreciates. Perhaps it would help to consider that perhaps your audience may not ready for your vision! Just consider what the first draft of Bohemian Rhapsody must have sounded like to somebody without the benefit of a studio.
Some things just can’t be appreciated until they are completed.

So far as Spawn Camping goes… OMG – This frosts me as well. Especially when engineers who build there determine it to be a free build zone. And it’s not like there are too many payload maps where the other team is not forced to run by the opposing teams door.
My two cents worth, if they aint hacking, they aint cheating! All’s fair in love and war.

[Plastic Jesus]

What map was it? I like Hoover, I think it's one of the best arena maps.

[HurTmePlentY]

i remember from older games where spawncamping was spawning and NOT having a chance to move at all before being killed not even a second later.

there is a whole spawn room that your TEAM can work together to push back the people waiting outside the door.
spawncamping = no chance to fight back
tf2 spawncamping = big chance to fight back


im for tf2 spawncamping.

[KEKEKE]

I dunno, 12 minutes on any map is a pretty long time for this server. =P

What map are you referring to? I love giving feedback, but if you're talking about Ying Yang you might not like it.

[D34THSPAWN]

he is...ying yang is too big...there are some serious problems still...like missing textures and missing brushes along with NO WAY TO GET OUT OF THE WATER and then the intel took me two rounds to find and the layout is confusing...if there were signs it would be better....theres prolly more...if you want i can load it up and get more detailed...those are the main thihngs that i remember

[KEKEKE]

I like some parts of Ying Yang. I like the long drawn out path between bases because I can get off like a trillion shots before anyone could possibly imagine getting close to me.

Outside of that, it is effing gigantic. I have no idea where anyone is coming from or going to. Enemies can enter and stand in my spawn. There were stickies on the spawn. I would spawn and be blown up. In my spawn.

I know it's alpha, but there are holes in the map. Like...big holes. The whole map is almost too broken to play. I'm not trying to bust your chops, I just want you to understand why people might quickly RTV it.

Try to fill the holes, make the design a bit more intuitive, add some signs, make it smaller. Theres still hope for ying yang!

[GrimGriz]

if you want i can load it up and get more detailed...

I'm going to go out on a limb and speak for all mappers: We always want more detailed feedbacks.

[Original]

Well, I think the most frustrating part was actually trying to explain a few things to people. But everytime I tried someone was bitching about, 'not fun -within a minute of start? come on', not finished...
It was so constant and ongoing even at the end of the map I was trying to repeat these points:
captian was also saying 'its the first alpha, he's got a long way to go...'


1: its an alpha: aka: unfinished early rough version that needs play test to determing stuff like : 'It's ginormous!'
2: that one door to spawn was exploitable and players should avoid doing so as I was in a major time crunch and couldn't fix it.
I was hoping that telling people not to would help for a quick test. However I had forgot to rename a spawn brush inside blue spawnthat let red inside. DOH. that's stuff playtesting helps find. Its hard to run around a map by your self over and over trying to find evry little thing. Usually I know what's wrong so I don't try to exploit. Others do so its a fresh perspective.

3: That I'm not at all worried about visuals. things like overlapping tex, floating objects, purple reflections. all this takes time and is iportant near a final release.
But at this early of a stage major changes can still take place, so even if I fix that stuff it might come up again, it might be deleted, might be covered up....
It was ALL about gameplay.
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I did get the feedback I needed though and it helped me decide where to go next. Which has been to shrink the outdoors ALOT, add signs in spawn, fix spawn issues, etc...

This helps us mappers alot to get quick early tests. If I had spent 40 hours detailing it just to find out I had to delete all that work and start over I'd be pretty bummed out.


As Grim says, more feedback is always better than less. Even if you say the same thing the last 20 people did, it just helps reaffirm that change really needs made.
In the end even if the map is crappy it can only be better when players have a voice and speak up.

[Original]

man, the type window was being all buggy at the end....

I just want to make it clear. I'm not pissed or holding grudes either. I was dissapointed in how a few of the admins were acting is all and I figured it should be brought up so people think about this stuff in the future.

There was one pubber on who was whining the whole time too, but I expect that from any pub player on any server.

I personally don't mind at all if someone says it sucks. Maybe it does, but say it once and drop it, the maps not gonna change in the 12 minutes you bitch about it. Instead try to offer some feedback that will help the map not suck.